I’ve always felt that it’s important to thank those that help you become the person you are. My parents for taking care of me as a child and instilling my sense of ethics and morals. My friends for allowing me to learn about myself as I grew older. And my wife for accepting me for what I am and not expecting me to become something I’m not nor will ever be.
But there is a group of people on a forum that I need to thank publicly. Almost two years ago I joined ChristianForums.com because I was beginning to doubt Christianity. At the same time I also joined some other forums; some Christian, some not; to try and get as wide a range of thoughts as possible. I believe what I experienced at ChristianForums.com had more to do with my deconversion from Christianity than any other forum or anything else I read. And there’s no way that I can thank the members at CF enough for treating me in such a way that my mind is now free of Christianity.
First I want to thank the administrators at CF for setting up such a restrictive environment so that anything I said with my Agnostic icon attached to was automatically discounted as incorrect. Thank you for setting up the rules so that I cannot post answers in the “Questions by non-Christians” board, even though you allow Christians to start threads which is also against the rules. The hypocrisy in your enforcement of rules fit in perfectly with the way most Christians I have met act.
Next I want to thank the moderators that deleted any post that didn’t follow the censoring rules. Sure, I understand the need for a forum to have terms of service and weed out spam, pornography, and other junk. But I had a message deleted that was in response to someone having serious problems. My response was something along the lines of “I asked my pastor the same question and he told me…” I didn’t say anything about me disagreeing with the answer, although I did disagree with it. I answered exactly as I would have 2 months earlier when I was still sitting in a Baptist Church every Sunday morning. But because I had an Agnostic icon, my response was automatically discounted and deleted.
And last I want to thank the members at ChristianForums.com. Thank you for answering my questions with cliches and the standard Christian garbage that I heard while sitting in the pews. Thank you for giving me predictable answers to questions that I wasn’t even asking instead of looking at the problems I was having with Christianity and actually posting something that would help. And thank you for spouting homophobic, racist, and sexist comments at every opportunity. Those are three traits I certainly don’t want to be associated with and unfortunately was during my time as a Christian. Thank you for making me see that I was homophobic, racist, and sexist so that I could break free of that.
And I’m sure I’ll get some comments here defending CF, or Christianity in general. I’ve found that Christians tend to swarm when there’s something they don’t agree with. If you want to have an intelligent conversation, by all means leave a comment. But if all you want to do is spout the same junk that I read over at CF, save us both the time and don’t bother – I’ve heard it all before. There’s no cliche you can send, no Bible verse you can quote, no story from your life that you can tell that will convince me that Christianity is “the Truth”. I’ve read too much, learned to much, and looked into myself too much to ever be again able to swallow the lie that is Christianity.
Now go spend some time at the forums on http://ex-christian.net/
Comment by StewartP — February 2, 2008 @ 10:27 am
You were expecting otherwise???
Comment by Axinar — February 2, 2008 @ 12:32 pm
Stewart – I do spend a lot of time at ex-c. Not as much as I did during the deconversion process, but it is still overall a good group of people. Ironically I found that the people at ex-c exhibited a much more “Christian” attitude towards my questions and were much more understanding of problems.
Axinar – At the time, yes I was. I think part of that expectation falling down is what lead to me ultimately dropping Christianity.
Comment by Is There a God? — February 2, 2008 @ 2:08 pm
If there is one thing that will ever drive me totally from the church it is my fellow Christians. Ex-c does have a nice bunch of folks.
Comment by Questioning Christian — February 2, 2008 @ 3:54 pm
I hope you do well on your de-conversion. The heavy-handed and biased nature of christian forums in general is, of course, to protect the flock from seeing that the emperor has no clothes. While that is comforting to those who do not seek the truth, it is also stifling to people like you who do.
Best of luck!
Comment by Heathen Dan — February 2, 2008 @ 6:55 pm
Sounds like we had a similar de-conversion. Instead of ChristianForums, though, I am a student at an evangelical Christian school. My process of de-conversion included conversations with professors and classmates that generally only served to encourage my de-conversion for their close-mindedness and thoughtless answers.
Most of my closest friends are Christians, and I still respect many Christians. But I find it interesting that there is a fear mentality that drives their conversations with non-believers. In chapel there are always warnings to students that if they read philosophy or science, they should be careful to to fall into the trap of “reasonalotry.” You know, because reason is a tool the devil will use to drive you away from Jesus.
Comment by carriedthecross — February 3, 2008 @ 2:41 pm
Yes, there is always a Christian to thank, isn’t there?
I remember the day I wanted to go hug the lady that started the ball rolling.
We were in Bible study, and I commented that studying Genesis genealogies didn’t help me heal from the pain of having grown up in a dysfunctional family.
“That’s your problem,” said a grumpy lady. “We are not going to take responsibility for your problems.”
Bless her!
Comment by Lorena — February 7, 2008 @ 8:06 pm
Christian Forums is a pathetic place to go to learn anything about Christianity…sadly. It is a bunch of people without a life spewing their cynicism and vitriol while hiding behind a computer screen.
Many are shizophrenic in their beliefs and talk out both sides of their mouths.
My friend says they are so mean she calls them “UNChristian Forums”.
I am a devout and ordained Christian and I truly feel bad for those who base their views on Christianity by what they see on CF.
Jesus IS Lord!
Comment by Ruby — May 10, 2008 @ 6:17 pm
Ruby –
CF is not an exception from what I’ve seen. In fact, with as many people as are members there there are bound to be many members that actually would be willing to discuss the issues I was having at the time. Unfortunately the rules were setup in such a restrictive manner by the administration that that is not possible.
I’m surprised that a “devout and ordained Christian” would be surprised by that. You are bound to have met enough Christians to know that no Christian agrees 100% with any other. Even those that claim to agree 100% with their pastor or their Bible don’t. For example, the last church I was a member at was an American Baptist Association church. Like most Baptist churches drinking was not allowed. One day we were talking with a visiting pastor and asked why there was a restriction on alcohol and he said there really wasn’t and that he didn’t see any problem with drinking a beer after work. The problem came with becoming drunk, but that instead of drawing the line at drunk most Baptists draw the line at alcohol period.
And the irony of you talking about people “without a life spewing their cynicism and vitrol while hiding behind their computer screen” while describing them as “pathetic” makes me laugh. It’s not bad enough that Christians attack anyone who is not Christian or not even the same denomination. You go one step further and attack your own. Truthfully that’s a good thing from my view. Christianity is such an overbloated monster that it has to come down from within and your attitude is helping that happen.
Lorena –
I remember the phrase that started the ball rolling for me too. Someone asked our pastor if newly born children were evil and he told us that all people are inherently evil. I couldn’t accept that. So I started researching on my own which eventually led to me leaving Christianity.
Heathen Dan –
Your “protecting the flock” comment is dead on. I just wish I had realized it earlier. It took me a lot of time to come to the conclusion that for an absurdity like Christianity to survive it had to protect itself from outside influences.
The church in El Dorado, Texas, is a great example. The didn’t let any outside influences in and look how well it worked out for them.
carried –
What’s struck me since deconverting is how obvious the fear tactics are, but were totally invisible while I was a Christian.
A few days ago I overheard a group of my students talking about what denominations they are. I heard lots of “I know I’m going to Heaven” and that type of tripe. Well, one asked me and I told them the truth – that I’m somewhere between agnostic and deist, two terms they didn’t know so I gave them the short version. The first question I got was “aren’t you afraid of dieing?” The fear of death was the first question that came into their heads. I answered “no, it doesn’t do any good to be afraid of it, it’s going to happen anyway.”
Comment by Is There a God? — May 11, 2008 @ 8:17 am
Ha! Yes, I attacked my own! I find non-Christians much more welcoming and open to discussion than most Christians.
I am ordained and minister to the poor and downtrodden. They love to hear the good news – they don’t argue with it. Also, to tell the truth, I don’t find the “vitriol” from people in real life as from those on CF.
While still a Christian, I am glad to be freed from “religion”, which is what most Christians hide behind.
Good luck to you!
Comment by Ruby — May 31, 2008 @ 2:02 pm
I’m a former ultra-conservative, I’ve been there, people that don’t listen, don’t take the time, don’t know better and worse.
You could do worse, you could settle for not having a mind of your own.
Not even God will respect someone who doesn’t respect him/herself.
You are actually ahead of the pack, you have questions…
don’t let even death stop you from getting what you want.
So, talk to me, anytime, anything.
Comment by John De Jesus — May 31, 2008 @ 8:13 pm
John – I really like “Not even God will respect someone who doesn’t respect him/herself”. It goes along with a question I asked one time about why God would give us the ability to have these thoughts if all he wanted was for us to be “good little Christians”.
Comment by Is There a God? — June 1, 2008 @ 7:47 am
If I based my beliefs in Christianity on how other Christians acted, I would be an atheist too. This kind of hypocritical behavior was recognized and criticized by Jesus. His harshest words were to the religious leaders of his Jewish community (Matthew 23), and I take comfort in that; he understood the absolutely frustrating, and sometimes downright evil, actions of many who proclaim to be followers of God.
Comment by Matthew Schultz — August 3, 2008 @ 5:17 pm
Matt, nice cliche. You just cemented my point.
You’re on a blog asking questions about your religion and it should be fairly obvious that I don’t respect the Bible as having any type of authority, and yet you quote it as an answer. So like the Christians at CF you read a question I ask, spout scripture back, and think you’ve done your Christian duty while totally missing the point.
Comment by Is There a God? — August 3, 2008 @ 6:59 pm
Is There a God? writes:
“You’re on a blog asking questions about your religion and it should be fairly obvious that I don’t respect the Bible as having any type of authority, and yet you quote it as an answer.”
You don’t have to view the Bible as authoritative for it to be useful in a discussion about Christianity. In what way did you think I quoted it as having “authority” over you?
“So like the Christians at CF you read a question I ask, spout scripture back, and think you’ve done your Christian duty while totally missing the point.”
You complained about bad Christian behavior and used it as a reason for rejecting Christianity. I simply answered you on your own grounds–the Christian world view expects and anticipates bad “Christian” behavior.
In other words, when you were a Christian, there’s no reason you should have appealed to the bad behavior of those who claimed to be Christians as a reason to reject Christianity. It’s not a logical reason to reject faith in God.
And, by way of disclaimer, I have no glowing opinion of the “Christian” conduct over at ChristianForums either.
Comment by Matthew Schultz — August 3, 2008 @ 11:06 pm
Maybe “authority” isn’t the right word. I don’t give a crap what the Bible says, I don’t give a crap what a fictional character says. I might as well quote Bart Simpson to try and convince you of something. Basically you’re coming in here with the “criticized by Jesus” line which means nothing to me. I don’t care that you agree with someone who may or may not have lived 2,000 years ago.
Right now you are coming across with one of the Christian traits that I can’t stand. You are acting like you’re better than others (the CF members) and acting like you’re interested in what I have to say in an underhanded attempt to try and convince me that Christianity – let’s make that more specific, your version of Christianity – is the right way and everybody else, including me, is wrong.
There is nothing you can write or say that will convince me to ever go back to Christianity. It’s bunk.
And for the record, it wasn’t Christians that led me away from Christianity. It was the fact that it is fiction. There is nothing about Christianity that is any more valid than any of the other creation myths. Tell me this. Why do you believe the Christian creation myth while being able to dismiss the Islamic version, the Greek version, or the Roman version?
Comment by Is There a God? — August 4, 2008 @ 11:39 am
“I don’t give a crap what the Bible says, I don’t give a crap what a fictional character says.”
Almost 100% of scholars believe that Jesus existed, critical or not.
“It was the fact that it is fiction. There is nothing about Christianity that is any more valid than any of the other creation myths. Tell me this. Why do you believe the Christian creation myth while being able to dismiss the Islamic version, the Greek version, or the Roman version?”
The resurrection is the basis of the truth claims of Christianity. The “creation myth” of Christianity falls or rises on that fact, and excludes other “myths” in the same way.
Historical arguments can be made in its favor. However, given that you have already excluded any possible evidence or arguments in favor of Christianity, there seems little point in spending the time to construct one.
Comment by Matthew Schultz — August 4, 2008 @ 8:36 pm
“Almost 100% of scholars believe that Jesus existed, critical or not.”
Existed and the son of God are two entirely different things. Sure, there were probably lots of guys named Jesus around 2,000 years ago. And as many people as the Romans crucified, odds are good that there were a bunch of guys named Jesus on that list too.
And I’ve looked at historical arguments. You should take off your Christian blinders and look at them yourself. I promise you’ll be happier once you start living your life for yourself instead of some fictional deity.
Either way though, nothing you have said is more than I’ve read or been told by someone else. Nothing you have said is new to me. So the best thing you can do is believe that you have “planted a seed” and move on. That seed has already died, but if you need to think you’ve done your duty as a good little Christian then so be it.
Comment by Is There a God? — August 5, 2008 @ 8:37 am
“Existed and the son of God are two entirely different things.”
You called Jesus a “fictional” character on the same level as “Bart Simpson.” That was the issue to which I was responding.
“Sure, there were probably lots of guys named Jesus around 2,000 years ago. And as many people as the Romans crucified, odds are good that there were a bunch of guys named Jesus on that list too.”
How many critical scholars who study the accounts of Jesus believe his life can be accounted for by lots of people named Jesus?
And how would you even go about demonstrating this as historical fact?
“And I’ve looked at historical arguments. You should take off your Christian blinders and look at them yourself.”
What historical arguments about the resurrection did you engage?
And everyone has “blinders.” Can you look at the arguments without your skeptical, evolutionary formed ones?
“I promise you’ll be happier once you start living your life for yourself instead of some fictional deity.”
I was never happy when I lived for myself.
And how can I trust your promise? I don’t know what you believe or why you do either.
Comment by Matthew Schultz — August 5, 2008 @ 9:20 am
[quote]“Existed and the son of God are two entirely different things.”
You called Jesus a “fictional” character on the same level as “Bart Simpson.” That was the issue to which I was responding.[/quote]
So, you agree that there isn’t any historical evidence for the deity of Jesus, just evidence that he existed as a person?
[quote]And everyone has “blinders.” Can you look at the arguments without your skeptical, evolutionary formed ones?[/quote]
True, everybody does look at the world through blinders. For a majority of my life I had the same Christian blinders on that you do. To look past those you have to be willing to accept that you may be wrong which sounds like something you’re not willing to do. Once I accepted that there may be other views than Christianity Christianity began to quickly fall apart.
[quote]I was never happy when I lived for myself.
And how can I trust your promise? I don’t know what you believe or why you do either.[/quote]
Well, if you need to believe that a fictional being is in control of your life to make you happy than that’s your choice. For me, I’d rather live for myself and for my family and friends.
Honestly, I don’t care if you trust me or not. I’m not trying to convince you of anything. You came on to my blog spouting the same Christian BS that I’ve heard all my life, all the while claiming that you are somehow different.
Comment by Is There a God? — August 5, 2008 @ 9:34 am
—-”So, you agree that there isn’t any historical evidence for the deity of Jesus, just evidence that he existed as a person?”—-
Where did I say that? I was only responding to the idea that Jesus the person is a fictional character on the level of Bart Simpson. That is an incredibly unpopular view, even among critical scholars. Showing this idea to lack credibility does not logically lead to me believing there is no evidence that Jesus was God.
—-”To look past those you have to be willing to accept that you may be wrong which sounds like something you’re not willing to do. Once I accepted that there may be other views than Christianity Christianity began to quickly fall apart.”—-
Who says I haven’t already done that?
And this is just a bit humorous coming from someone who has joined the chorus of hard atheists–those who have entrenched themselves in the position that Christianity is wrong, and has proclaimed that there is no evidence or argument that could ever convince them otherwise.
If you’re so confident it’s wrong, and aren’t open to the possibility of error, why should I be any different?
—-”Honestly, I don’t care if you trust me or not. I’m not trying to convince you of anything.”—-
Then why the emphatic “I promise you”? Why the claim that life under Christianity is worse than life “for yourself”? Those are the trappings of someone “trying to convince.”
Comment by Matthew Schultz — August 5, 2008 @ 11:36 am
You don’t have to be an atheist to believe Christianity is wrong. I’m not. There probably is something out there bigger than us. It’s just not the Christian God. It’s not the Islamic God. It’s not Buddha.
But you’re right about one thing. There is nothing that could convince me that the Christian God is true. I’ve had enough “evidence” thrown at me, and it’s bogus. As someone who has been on both sides of the argument I can tell you that Christian evidence is only really effective if you’re already a Christian. At least it’s that way to me. I look back at arguments that I heard as a Christian, and that made perfect sense at the time, and can’t believe that I actually agreed.
I’m glad that you’re happy as a Christian. Everybody deserves to be happy. My life is better now that I’m living for now rather than living for the afterlife. My problem is that a majority of the Christians I’ve met are not happy. They are so focused on pleasing God that they do so while keeping themselves miserable.
So, if you’re not trying to convince me I’m wrong, why are you here? Why did you come by and comment? Are you just looking for an argument?
Comment by Is There a God? — August 5, 2008 @ 12:26 pm
—-So, if you’re not trying to convince me I’m wrong, why are you here? Why did you come by and comment? Are you just looking for an argument?—-
To engage public statements you made about your reasons for leaving Christianity with a public response, and to have, as you desired, an “intellectual conversation” about those issues. That you might find an argument personally convincing would be a tertiary objective.
If you’re interested in having that conversation, there are still issues on the table. But if not, as seems to be the case, I will move on.
Comment by Matthew Schultz — August 5, 2008 @ 2:21 pm
Truthfully, I enjoy these types of discussion. They serve to let me know that I made the right decision. But as we seem to be talking in circles around each other, I think it’s best that we just let it go.
Comment by Is There a God? — August 5, 2008 @ 2:33 pm
I once had a friend who “deconverted” from Christianity. He wasn’t any happier though. He lived for the now instead of the afterlife but still felt unfufilled.
Did you make this post because you feel unfufilled?
Is it because even though your living for the now and having a good time you still feel like something is missing?
If you are truly happy and content, then why the website?
What is your purpose in life since you deconverted (aside from living a pleasureful life)?
Comment by Steve — August 24, 2008 @ 2:28 pm
Why do you assume that just because your friend was unfulfilled that everyone else who left Christianity must be? Why do you feel the need to belittle those that have left Christianity by putting deconverted in quotes like it’s not a real thing? It’s no different than writing about a friend that was “saved”. That would be belittling your beliefs.
Every person feels that something is missing from their life. Otherwise why would we try to improve ourselves? For some it’s education. For some it’s a more fulfilling job. For some it’s getting married. For some it’s volunteering. For some it’s having children. But it is not the God Shaped Hole that Christians like to think it is. Not for me at least. You may look at it as a God Shaped Hole because that’s convenient, but that doesn’t make it the truth.
Until you have come to the realization that something you’ve believed since you were a child is absurd you cannot understand why I started this blog. During the deconversion process; and yes, it is a real thing; I needed an outlet to get my thoughts out of my head and onto paper. As I live in a part of the country where non-Christian is associated with evil internet forums and blogs were the only places I could go to work out what was going through my head. When I first started it I was posting quite a bit. This particular post is my most recent, and it was written over 6 months ago. I don’t post here much anymore because I don’t feel the need to. I’m comfortable with my thoughts and beliefs now, even though they don’t match up with the mainstream where I live, so I don’t post here as often. I still answer comments though because it would be just rude not to.
And everybody has a different purpose in life. For you it may be to live the life your God wants you to live. I live the life that I think I’m supposed to and it has nothing to do with a higher power.
Comment by Is There a God? — August 24, 2008 @ 3:06 pm
I apologize if it sounding like I assumed everyone who leaves Christianity is unfufilled; thats not what I meant. I was sincerely asking if your experience left you that way.
I also apologize for putting deconversion in quotes I had never heard the term before and was unfamiliar with it.
I am still interested though in your purpose for life. You said, “I live the life I think I’m supposed to live…” how did you come up with how your supposed to live?
I have another friend who is an atheist and from our conversations I have found out his purpose for life is to live the most pleasure-filled life possible. He claims that by being a Christian I am giving up too many pleasureful things because I believe they are sin.
Is your purpose deeper than his?
Are you still searching for a purpose to live?
Comment by Steve — August 24, 2008 @ 9:00 pm
Sounds like I may have misread you as well. As you can probably imagine I get a lot of comments here that are just angry diatribes against what I write without much thought. My apologies for making assumptions about you.
Truthfully, my morals lie pretty much in line with Christianity. I don’t do drugs. I drink very little. I’ve never cheated on my wife. Wanting to do things that Christianity teaches is wrong had nothing to do with my deconversion.
As far as purpose, I see it as all of our jobs to make the world a better place than it was when we got here. In my case I’m a teacher. I feel that getting kids ready for their future helps with mankind’s future. I also believe that we shouldn’t be treating the environment like we’re going to be raptured in the next few years and that people, and all animals, will need the planet for a long, long time and we should do our best to have it available for future generations.
And I think that the search for purpose is part of the purpose. As soon as you think you’ve arrived at your ideal location, it goes away.
Comment by Is There a God? — August 25, 2008 @ 5:24 am
Thank-you for answering my questions politely and honestly.
I want to apologize for the hypocrite “Christians” on forums and such who turned you away from Christianity. I also want to apologize to you on behalf of your church who failed to answer your questions.
I find it very sad that Christians who are supposed to be converting the world with the power and love of Christ, played a part in your deconversion. I’m am sorry for that.
If you have any other questions about Christianity I would be happy to try and answer them, but from what I’ve read above you seem pretty set in your new beliefs.
Good luck with your teaching. I’m still only a student so I know the influence teachers have on kids. It’s a great purpose of life make the most of it.
Comment by Steve — August 25, 2008 @ 5:57 pm
I honestly think that a lot of Christian teaching is good and a lot of what lessons are attributed to Jesus are good. I just don’t think that He was the deity that He is made out to be. If there was a teacher named Jesus around that time, and odds are pretty good that there was as it seemed to be a pretty common name, then he was just that, a teacher. One with some good lessons, but not with divinity.
And thanks for your understanding. It’s nice to have someone who feels strongly about their beliefs willing to accept that not everyone believes the same.
Comment by Is There a God? — August 25, 2008 @ 7:56 pm
Many of my brothers are sad examples of Christ. I am a sad example of Christ.
We Christians are people after all.
Comment by mathaytacechristou — October 6, 2008 @ 11:15 am
Hi, I realize you haven’t written here in a long time but I came over from Lorena’s blog and had to say I love this post. It says so much. Thanks.
Comment by Barbara — November 6, 2008 @ 5:48 pm
No, I haven’t written much here lately. And I’m thinking that’s a good sign. This blog was put up originally as a place for me to anonymously write through my leaving Christianity. The less I feel the need to write here the more comfortable I am not being part of Christianity
And thanks for stopping by.
Comment by Is There a God? — November 7, 2008 @ 8:07 pm
Yeah, CF can be bitch. Sometimes the censorship is just too much.
Comment by S53 — December 6, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
i have a comment that took shape as i was reading your opening statements and the rest of what you wrote….
I’m baffled…..mainly because one cannot get a sense of God nor know of Him or be intimate with Him based on what humans do or do not do. It’s like this…
me n’ God, eyeball to eyeball…me daring to ask Him Who He is, if He exists, and if so to meet me….it’s like when Jacob, in all his audaciousness actually wrestled with God with all that he had in him….it’s like Moses who sought God face to face….and God answered…it’s like you or me doing the same…
it’s not about looking us a pathetic human being, and from that look or observance, determining if there is a God. It’s having the guts to seek Him on our own, with everything in us, and making a determination from that….so you made your determination from a website? Made up of human beings?
Comment by brinny — December 10, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
“it’s like you or me doing the same…”
What makes you think I haven’t tried?
More importantly, why, looking at the kind of people that are on that absurd forum, would I want to associate myself with them? Look at them from the outside. What would you think of Christianity based on the actions of Christians? It’s not pretty.
But before you start on the “true Christian” argument or anything else that’s running through your head, stop. I don’t want to hear anything you have to say. It’s not new. It’s nothing I haven’t heard. Sure, Christianity is a “relationship, not a religion”. Whatever. It may be a relationship, but it’s a relationship with a figment of your imagination.
Comment by Is There a God? — December 10, 2008 @ 4:59 pm
well thanks for responding…..and no, i’m not going to argue about “true Christians”…..just sharing some thoughts as i read your first post…..i value dialog, even when there’s disagreement, and i’m glad you responded…
Comment by brinny — December 10, 2008 @ 8:30 pm