But there is a group of people on a forum that I need to thank publicly. Almost two years ago I joined ChristianForums.com because I was beginning to doubt Christianity. At the same time I also joined some other forums; some Christian, some not; to try and get as wide a range of thoughts as possible. I believe what I experienced at ChristianForums.com had more to do with my deconversion from Christianity than any other forum or anything else I read. And there’s no way that I can thank the members at CF enough for treating me in such a way that my mind is now free of Christianity.

First I want to thank the administrators at CF for setting up such a restrictive environment so that anything I said with my Agnostic icon attached to was automatically discounted as incorrect. Thank you for setting up the rules so that I cannot post answers in the “Questions by non-Christians” board, even though you allow Christians to start threads which is also against the rules. The hypocrisy in your enforcement of rules fit in perfectly with the way most Christians I have met act.

Next I want to thank the moderators that deleted any post that didn’t follow the censoring rules. Sure, I understand the need for a forum to have terms of service and weed out spam, pornography, and other junk. But I had a message deleted that was in response to someone having serious problems. My response was something along the lines of “I asked my pastor the same question and he told me…” I didn’t say anything about me disagreeing with the answer, although I did disagree with it. I answered exactly as I would have 2 months earlier when I was still sitting in a Baptist Church every Sunday morning. But because I had an Agnostic icon, my response was automatically discounted and deleted.

And last I want to thank the members at ChristianForums.com. Thank you for answering my questions with cliches and the standard Christian garbage that I heard while sitting in the pews. Thank you for giving me predictable answers to questions that I wasn’t even asking instead of looking at the problems I was having with Christianity and actually posting something that would help. And thank you for spouting homophobic, racist, and sexist comments at every opportunity. Those are three traits I certainly don’t want to be associated with and unfortunately was during my time as a Christian. Thank you for making me see that I was homophobic, racist, and sexist so that I could break free of that.

And I’m sure I’ll get some comments here defending CF, or Christianity in general. I’ve found that Christians tend to swarm when there’s something they don’t agree with. If you want to have an intelligent conversation, by all means leave a comment. But if all you want to do is spout the same junk that I read over at CF, save us both the time and don’t bother – I’ve heard it all before. There’s no cliche you can send, no Bible verse you can quote, no story from your life that you can tell that will convince me that Christianity is “the Truth”. I’ve read too much, learned to much, and looked into myself too much to ever be again able to swallow the lie that is Christianity.

I think the term areligious describes my beliefs better anyway. The way I look at it to know there is no god requires the same amount of faith as it does to know that there is a God. Since I have yet to see convincing proof either way I can’t fall on one side of the argument or the other. I suppose that makes me agnostic as well, which is a term I’m comfortable with.

And areligious really fits better because I’m not against Christians (or Muslims, Jews, or any other faiths), I’m against Christianity (or again any of the other religions). Every religion on this planet is man made no matter what your pastor tells you. They are all based on either oral histories or books written by men. No book was inspired by God.

Religion is what caused the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, the Spanish Inquisition, and the 9-11 bombings. Adults using what they were taught as children that God hates homosexuals is what leads to the Westboro Baptists protesting funerals. Had Fred Phelps been told that all people are people and that homosexuals just prefer to be with the same gender when he was young the Freedom Riders might not be necessary. Had Osama bin Laden’s mother not read him stories out of the Koran as a child the Twin Towers might still be standing. Had Hitler’s parents not raised him as a Catholic (yes, I know that there will be Christians who come along and disagree with that statement) hundreds of thousands of Jewish people may not have been killed. Catholicism is to blame, not the Catholic. Christianity is to blame, not the Christian. Islam is to blame, not the Muslim.

At the end I’m not against the belief in a god. I’m not against God. I’m against organized religion. It is poisoning the people of this planet and I feel that we would be better off if everybody could believe what they want without feeling that it is their god-given duty to fight a spiritual battle against those that believe differently. Unfortunately that is not going to happen any time soon as long as parents are teaching their children to hate others just because of a difference in belief.

So let’s take a look.

What is a cult?

A. Generally, it is a group that is unorthodox, esoteric, and has a devotion to a person, object, or a set of new ideas.

Think about any serious Christian you know, not just somebody that goes to church but one that is very serious about their beliefs. Are they devoted to Jesus? Are they devoted to the cross? Are they devoted to the teachings of Christ? To me that is a very unorthodox viewpoint.

i. New Teaching – has a new theology and doctrine

At the time that Jesus, assuming he existed, was walking around the Middle East his teachings were new.

ii. Only True Teaching – often considers traditional religious systems to be apostate and it alone possess the complete truth

No one shall come to the father except through me. Sound familiar? Heck, many Christians refer to Christianity as “the Truth”. Wouldn’t a Christian consider Islam apostate?

iii. Strong Leadership – often an individual or small but powerful leadership group holds control over the group’s teaching and practices.

This one seems to apply more to Catholicism than Protestant Christianity, but even the Protestant groups have deacons, pastors, and other groups within the church that hold power. And they are certainly in leadership positions.

Even for those churches that welcome members to read the Bible on their own and claim that they’d like members to come to their own conclusions the pastor leads sermons with what they want to say.

iv. Asset Acquirement – often requires tithing and / or property transfer to the religious system.

I can’t believe they even listed this one. Have you ever been to a church that didn’t at least pass around a offering plate? I’ve been to some that station a deacon on the door to guilt you into giving on the way out the door.

Building funds, mission funds, they’re all giving your property to the religious system. Sure, they may say your giving back to God based on how He blessed you, but I’m pretty sure that bank account that my checks were getting deposited into didn’t have Yahweh as a signor.

v. Isolationist – to facilitate control over the members physically, intellectually, financially, and emotionally

Church camps for the kids. Sunday school instead of little league. I was told to stay away from friends that aren’t Christian. Sounds pretty isolating to me.

vi. Controlling – exercises control over the members. Sometimes this is through fear, threatening loss of salvation if you leave the group. Sometimes through indoctrination.

Control through fear. Like the fear of death? Like the fear of not seeing your dead loved ones again? Like the fear of Hell?

Loss of salvation. How many times have you heard that if you’re not a Christian now you never were a Christian?

vii. Indoctrination – possesses methods to reinforce the cult’s beliefs and standards where opposing views are ridiculed and often misrepresented.

Ever hear a Christian explain evolution? “Why are there still monkeys” or “banana being perfectly formed for human consumption” both sound terrible misrepresented.

viii. Apocalyptic – to give the members a future focus and philosophical purpose in avoiding the apocalypse or being delivered through it.

Come on! Read the Book of Revelations? The entire point of being Christian is so that when the world ends you’re not left here with the sinners.

ix. Experience – various practices including meditation, repetition of words and / or phrases, and ‘spiritual’ enlightenment with God are used as confirmation of their truth.

a – Deprivation – sleep and foot deprivation which weakens the will of the subject.

b – This is uncommon, though practices by more severe cults.

“Repetition of words and / or phrases”. Like the Lord’s Prayer? I can’t count how many times I had to repeat John 3:16. And the line between silently praying and meditation is so thin it’s almost absent.

And how about the deprivation of dating, sex, alcohol, dancing, and fun? I feel that I missed out on a lot during my time as a Christian.

x. Persecution – predictions of being persecuted and often combined with claiming any opposing views demonstrated against them as a form of persecution.

You’ve got to be kidding me. If you listen to the average Christian they are the most persecuted people on the earth. Hell, the Bible even says they’ll be persecuted. And I’ve heard that “gay rights” is persecutory against Christians.

B. Many have a non-verifiable belief system

i . For example, they would teach something that cannot be verified.

Like man formed from dirt, woman formed from his rib, a guy living in a fish for 3 days, a pregnant virgin, fitting 2 (or 7 depending on the verse) of each animal on a boat?

a. A space ship behind Hale-Bop comet

Or a executed prisoner coming to life.

b. Or, that God, and alien, or angel appeared to the leader and gave him a revelation

So Joseph Smith is out but apparently if God had given him 10 commandments on 2 stone tablets instead of gold plates then it’s real.

c. The members are seeded angels from another world, etc.

Or that members were created from dirt.

C. The leader of a cult

i. Often charismatic who is considered very special for varying reasons:

a. The leader has received special revelation from God.

Like stone tablets.

b. The leader claims to be the incarnation of a deity, angel, or special messenger.

Like claiming to be the messiah.

The leader claims to be appointed by God for a mission.

Like to die for all of mankind’s sins.

The leader claims to have special abilities.

Like healing lepers and walking on water.

ii. The leader is often above reproach and is not to be denied on contradicted.

So the leader could, for example, molest preteen boys and not be prosecuted for it? Oh wait, that happens already.

D. Cult ethos

i. Usually seek to do good works, otherwise no on would join them.

How dare a non-Christian do something good for the planet. Next thing you know there might be friendly Jews and Muslims giving to charity. Just imagine. The world would end.

ii. They are usually moral and possess a good standard of ethical teaching.

I’ve heard dozens, if not more, Christians claim that without God there are no ethics and morals.

iii. Many times the Bible is used or additional “scriptures” are penned.

a. The Bible, if used, is always distorted with private interpretations.

So if somebody names Strong has an interpretation it is correct but if Joseph Smith’s interpretations are wrong? How am I supposed to know if the pastor in the pulpit’s interpretation is right or wrong?

iv. Many Cults recruit Jesus as one of their own and redefine him accordingly.

Not totally on topic, but I love that they capitalized “Cult” on this one.

Every Christian denomination claims Jesus. Which denominations are right and which are cults?

Ok, I’ve got to stop for now. I’ll come back to this in a couple of days. I really wasn’t expecting that every single line that Carm is trying to apply to a cult would apply to Christianity as well.

Let’s take a look at part of their Questions and Objections to Christianity, specifically how to handle it when an atheist tells you they don’t believe in God. It’s a five part answer and it’s amazing how ineffective it is to me now that I have no stake in Christianity being correct.

The following 5 quotes are their suggested response to “I am an atheist. I don’t believe in God.”

An atheist is defined in two senses: Someone who says he believes there is no God, and someone who simply lacks belief in God. An atheist cannot say he knows there is no God, because he would have to know all things in order to know if there is or isn’t a God. If he says he believes there is no God, ask him why he believes that way, and begin there. If he says he lacks belief in God, then ask what he does believe in, and start there. I always get around to the question of, “How did we get here?” Since creation and evolution are the only options, I have something further to work with.

I’ve got to focus on one sentence first. “An atheist cannot say he knows there is no God, because he would have to know all things in order to know if there is or isn’t a God.” That works both ways. I’ve heard Christians tell me they know there’s a God, most of the time citing faith as the way they know. But faith is not proof.

Yes, I cannot say that I know there is not a God. The most I can say is that based on how I see the world the Christian God does not exist. Yes, I may be surprised when I die and come upon a deity leading me into the afterlife. And it may be Yahweh, although I really doubt it. And if it is Yahweh He is certainly not a deity that I find worth worshiping for all eternity.

And one other problem sentence – “Since creation and evolution are the only options, I have something further to work with”. One word was left out – Christian. The argument is that Christian creation and evolution are the only options. That’s absurd. Every culture has some type of creation myth. Why would you limit your argument to one?

An agnostic says he doesn’t know if there is or isn’t a God. (Usually after saying this I challenge them to explain the prophecies of the Old Testament fulfilled in the New. I state how the Bible is unique that way, and that only God can make prophecies that are 100% accurate. Then I ask him to explain how that could be done if there is no God.)

To me, Old Testament prophecies are a terrible way to argue the validity of the Bible. If a commenter wants to come here and post on the importance of prophecy, go for it. But just because a few things written in the Old Testament sort of came true, it doesn’t make any type of valid claim for Christianity.

If there is no God as you say, then in the end I lose nothing. But if there is a God like I say, in the end you lose everything.

Why does Pascal’s Wager always come up in this? The same argument can be made for every religion that has a version of Heaven and Hell. To the Christian, if there is no Allah as you say then in the end I lose nothing. But if there is an Allah, then you’ll end up in the Islamic version of Hell which from what I understand is much worse than the Christian version.

Why don’t you believe in God? Is there any reason for you to intelligently reject His existence? Or, do you simply desire not to believe in Him?

Flip that. Do you simply desire to believe in Him?

Yes, belief in God gives a safe feeling. It was a nice feeling when I was Christian that I “knew” I was going to Heaven after I died and was not going to simply rot underground. But wanting to believe doesn’t make it so. Just because I believe I will win the lottery doesn’t mean I will.

The belief in God also gives people a sense of control. Random actions injure and kill people all the time. It is understandable that we would like to believe that there is control in this world even when it doesn’t seem so. Again, wanting to believe doesn’t make it so.

The Bible doesn’t attempt to prove that God exists. It simply speaks as though He does. Maybe I can’t prove to you there is a God, but I can introduce Him to you through His Son Jesus Christ, and you can judge for yourself if the Words of Christ in the Bible convince you of His existence.

That’s like saying books on Babar the Elephant don’t attempt to prove that Babar exists, they simply speak as though he does. The Bible is a book. No more, no less. It was written by men, recopied by men, read by men, and interpreted by men. It is not a holy book no matter how important it is to you. Why is it so easy for a Christian to read stories of Zeus, Allah, the Egyptian Gods, or any of the other creation myths that have come out throughout human history and dismiss them as myth but be unable to do the same for the Christian creation myth?

What I think is important, and obviously lacking in the CARM answers, is that some answers don’t make sense once you remove yourself from a Christian world view. During my time as a Christian all of these answers would have made perfect sense to me, it would have frustrated me to have a non-Christian not understand them, and they are all things I could see myself saying to a non-believer. But now that I’m able to look at the world without the Christian mindset overriding my mind I can see how absurd many of these arguments are.

A church deacon came to me and asked me to take up some task in the church. This particular time it was to sit out in the parking lot during the service and make sure that the cars stayed safe. But the requests kept growing both in time and money required.

What it left me with was a feeling of betrayal. The entire time I visited that church as a pre-Christian I was told that I just needed to accept Jesus and everything would be good. Now I was being told that I also needed to donate to the church in addition to the 10% that God required me to give, join a class or even better teach a class, and help out with other tasks around the church. Worst of all I was told that I should do so happily because it was “for God”.

No. I felt lied to. I felt that they had told me of the simplicity while leaving out all the other works, the entire time telling me that works wouldn’t save me.

660: Approximate number of the Beast

DCLXVI: Roman numeral of the Beast

666.0000: Number of the High Precision Beast

0.666: Number of the Millibeast

/ 666: Beast Common Denominator

666 ^ (-1): Imaginary number of the Beast

1010011010: Binary of the Beast

6, uh… what was that number again?: Number of the Blonde Beast

1-666: Area code of the Beast

00666: Zip code of the Beast

$665.95: Suggested Retail price of the Beast

$699.25: Price of the Beast plus 5% state sales tax

$769.95: Price of the Beast with all accessories and replacement soul

$656.66: Walmart price of the Beast

$646.66: Next week’s Walmart price of the Beast

Phillips 666: Gasoline of the Beast

Route 666: Highway of the Beast

666 F: Oven temperature for roast Beast

666k: Retirement plan of the Beast

666 mg: Recommended Minimum Daily Requirement of Beast

6.66 %: 5 year CD interest rate at First Beast of Hell National Bank, $666 minimum deposit.

Lotus 6-6-6: Spreadsheet of the Beast

Word 6.66: Word Processor of the Beast

i66686: CPU of the Beast

666i: BMW of the Beast

DSM-666 (revised): Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the Beast

668: Next-door neighbor of the Beast

665.9997856: The Number of the Beast on a Pentium